Talk:Goku VS Superman 2/@comment-14017325-20160406151545/@comment-14017325-20160413101244
you say: 'There's also me bringing up Superman does not always succeed in every physical feat. Since he does not have a 100% success rate, then clearly he is not limitless. You can argue that it's a mental strain all you like, that does not change the fact that he is NOT an omnipotent god who can do whatever he wants.' i say: ok first thing first please specifiy which version of superman you are reffering to and at what stage of his life is in when he does though feats. it can be confusing. and yes i can argue that its a mental strain you seem to not understand what causes it besides his earlier days his attachment there is also the fact that he uses his powers more profoundly for protection then goku does Boomstick: And he always gets all hung up on doing the right thing, even if it makes his life miserable. Wizard: He does not fight for himself, but to protect others. Even the buildings in Metropolis are more valuable to him than his own life… (Superman punches Captain Marvel to the hospital, the building crumbling down) most of the time. The point is, Superman spends more time defending the city than actually improving his own abilities. Boomstick: But remove all those pesky feelings about saving people and look out! as they said when he fights powerful beings he is also looking out for those innocents who are caught in the crossfire. and to make sure they are alright. and that holds him back if he went full strength completely he would obliterate the earth. it means more to him then his infinite power. he's is ommipotent as he is commonly seen as a god among men and with those powers and his max potential being endless. yes he can do whatever he wants as it was declared for the 50th time he is a strong as he needs to be. his strength depends on each story in the DC UNIVERSE. Superman's stories don't used this all the time because the story would end immediately if he did much like one punch man does with his battles. and dc wouldn't sell a dime because the nature of superman's stories does not fit the raising to the challenge nature of dbz nor the comedic gag of one punch man. the gods he fights in dc are bound to the story that dc is potraying and wants to go that falls on dc not death battle. thats why they do it like that but since they on the superman homepage that overall he is as strong as he needs to be it makes that irrelevant. he has inhibitors placed on him due to giving the story the chance to develop. but death battle does not do that they even say it themselves 'Wiz: We are looking at these characters at their maximum potential,' you say: 'And that's where your argument gets problematic. With fight threads you MUST use the maximum confirmed proven onscreen feat. You cannot speculate "because he's theoretically limitless, we can make him do whatever we want in this fight". Why? Because anyone can say that for any character to ever exist. More commonly known as fanboy logic.' i say: you can also use offical descriptions given by the creators/owners about the characters since its 'offical' information made by them. and what was the offical descritption for superman given by dc on his homepage' that is offical i have not once specualted in my posts regarding this topic everything i have said is a repeat of what screwattack has released' and in an easier form to understand ...mostly. since superman's stories has a wide variety of feats and levels it can be hard to take it all in and stack them up from worthless to the highest greatness. but death battle do their reasearch on everything. and they come to conclusion from 'offical sources' superman is omnipotent. you seem to have trouble trusting their reasearch they are a show. not a bunch of fans debating on forums about what ifs. this is THEIR specualtion:Wiz: Technically if Goku could find a way to draw energy across multiverses, his spirit bomb could possibly achieve the kind of limitless power to match Superman. But, not only would that take way too long to charge providing Superman with plenty of time to kill him thousands of times over, the spirit bomb does not hurt anyone pure of heart, like Superman. you say: 'Doesn't matter why it happens in stories. With What-If fight you need to ignore PIS and asspulls, and just use the facts that are shown. Regardless of why he doesn't succeed all the time, you cannot change the fact that he doesn't. Hence NOT limitless.' i say: his MAXIMUM POTENTIAL is limitless that is what has been released not the facts of his feats and what he has done that is relevant with the exception of lifiting infinity and eternity which is the highest feat and broke the whole thing altogether. potential means according to google. as an adjective. having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future. as noun 1.latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness. 2.the possibility of something happening or of someone doing something in the future. 3.the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field. you say:'Well genius, what do inhibitors and mental strain qualify as? Surprise! Those are limitations!' i say: WRONG!. its kryptonite, red sun and magic. outside influences that weaken him not his strength they were created for that reason to power him down. they are real reason for story development as well as beings of god stature into the story but the nature of superman's stories are not the same as dragon ball. the enemies he battles often escape to return to fight another day or they resolve their differences and is sealed up. there are tons and tons and tons of different factors in the dc franchise. more so then in the dragon ball one. which often determins the outputs of those stories but again it doesn't matter. Wiz: Superman has been beaten in battle before when he was still learning. Saying Superman should lose because he lost to Doomsday is the equivalent of saying Goku should lose because he was one shot by Raditz. We are looking at these characters at their maximum potential, not from some random point in their timelines. you say: But they are not allowed to make up and theorize his maximum potential. Only what is his absolute highest/most impressive feat he has performed onscreen. They pulled this BS in that fight by saying "if Goku could find a way to draw energy across multiverses, his spirit bomb could possibly achieve the kind of limitless power to match Superman." . Superman has been beaten by far less than multiverse levels of power before on countless occasions. i say: clearly you can't see they have sources they vowed to never use fan specualtion as sources. Wiz: To ensure no questions are left unanswered, we will be acknowledging every official resource for both combatants, though the original writings hold precedence. No mistranslations allowed. Also, as he was retconned and rebuilt in 1986, we will be examining the modern Superman. you say:I brought that up to show the sun wasn't limitless, and evidence that Superman wasn't limitless. I never said the fight would go on for several billion years. Because you kept bringing up "Superman has no limit" as the go to answer for everything, and I was invalidating that claim. i say: i should also bring in detail on what other things can power supers in the suns absence. obviously other stars in the universe which is filled with billions of trillions and superman can go to them easily. superman can rewind time so he can alway live in an era where the sun will be around forever to him.Finite limited energy source + Temporal powers = INfinite limited power for the Solar Battery known as Superman". 'there are beings in dc that can alter the laws of physics like playdough such as mxyzptlk a being from the 5th dimension and who is very fond of superman so they can restore the sun in a snap. superman prime one million was friends with another superman who came from the 5th dimension as well who also exhibits the same powers. so the sun can theoritcally exist around forever. when you have temporal powers like superman can by turning back time ' you say: I'm not gonna get into that immortality stuff. Not relevant in this discussion. Thank you. i say: yes it is. living that long for the fight against superman since goku is from 700 age era well cause goku to go mad from the sheer amount of wait and the ammount of pain he would have to endure would be worse then hell. 'my reason for goku not wanting this is because as quoted by the twealth doctor from the episode 'the girl who died' : 'Immortality isn't living forever. That's not what it feels like. Immortality is everybody else dying. She might meet someone she can't bear to lose. (meaning ashilder)' you say: And I just said no matter what is powering Supes, none of those are limitless. Unless he gets powered by the Big Bang which created the universe, nothing else can give him infinite power. i say: time travel. 5th dimensional beings. you say: 'Philosophical underpinnings do not change how strong a character is. That might change their storyline, but it should not effect a theoretical fight. Spider-Man is all about "never give up at any cost, and triumph over who's stronger with wits" but that doesn't mean he'll beat Galactus despite his philosophy typically dictating he'll win.' i say: its important for that as it keeps their characters true to their original interperations you taking it too literally however death battle indicates that with superman being described by dc as Wiz: Superman is an all powerful being who is only weak to alien radiation and supernatural magic. He is not meant to be relatable. He is not meant to lose. you say:Well don't use the "inconsistency" argument against me when debating against Goku, if you won't accept it against Superman. i say: because the source of the inconsistencies are different for each character. goku's fall on one man akira toriyama the original founder and current creator of the dragon ball story while dc has a bucket load of writers writing different superman stories with different ideals of how he is potrayed. thats whats different. you said:Blatant assumption on your own part they're talking about Prime. Why would the "Ultimate Guide to Superman" be talking about Prime in his general guide about his abilities? Show me where it said anything about "mental barriers" in that source. here. Wiz: After discovering his true heritage, Clark refused to accept his Kryptonian side. He subconsciously developed mental barriers that blocked him from attaining his full power, which he would work to uncover throughout the rest of his life. Boomstick: In order to master all his powers, Superman needed to break through his own self-created mental blocks, like how when he was younger, he believed he needed to eat food and breathe oxygen like humans, when he can really just survive on solar energy alone like some weird plant man. Wizard: And thanks to some intense training by Mongol II, he managed to tear these barriers down and become the true Superman, capable of amazing feats. goku vs superman 1 they have pictures. They can claim that all they like, but a lot of people have seen errors in that statement from what they actually ended up doing. They have been using feats from multiple versions of Superman, and NOT sticking to just modern version. because its the same superman from different points of his life. And that is fanboy logic at it's finest. Going in firmly believing one combatant would win, and outright ignoring what the other one will do. They go in thinking "Goku never had a chance from the start" and throw aside any feat that Goku has done, because in their eyes, no matter what he does it will never be greater than Superman. If Goku reached freaking Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 4 and destroyed the universe by blinking, they would still say "Superman is stronger, no matter what Goku does, because he's Superman". Well analyze the bloody feats of the opponent before making statements like that. I've said before and I'll say again, Superman does not win every non-Kryptonite fight, regardless of the claims that he's limitless. ha! no. it doesn't. superman just broke the system with his infinity and endless potential . even if that does happen goku will still have a limit one universe isn't worth much anymore in dragonball but all that ssj god ssj4 will still do jack all because it all comes down to this Wiz: Ultimately, Goku vs Superman comes down to a difference of limits and purpose. What happens when you pit a man with the power to break any limits against a being with no limits in the first place? Well, only one has limits to give at all. even super saiyan god super saiyan 4 x20 is stll a wall for goku and that is why goku will lose its getting really gigantic now. so its gonna be a while before we could respond to each other but be assured, i'll be back. reason why is that those debates natures are different then this one. but i gave legit reasons for putting them on hiahtus. i'll come back to them when i want to. i'm not forcing you to reply to this you can't help yourself.